Salsa City Forum » News and Chat » Monday Night at O'Neills

In the same thread as recent posting by RED MAN I wanted to tell you all about a a great evening. I have not been out on a Monday in Town for many many weeks because of work which is a dull story.

Now that I have time off for being a good boy, I went out last night to O’Neill’s and it was great. I have popped my head in on a few of the new nights in and around town and I have to say along side the great nights the Mr Witt runs this ranks as a very very good night of classes, And I sure his new venture on Thursdays will be, but enough of that, Mondays, great class and great Music By DJ Black Ice (scary Man).

And some very good people to dance with, I have seen many a threads on these evenings about which is good can beginners go etc and this is a very good one. I am I have great belief that the people who teach dance should be great dancers and great teachers and I rank Charlotte and Andy Witt in the same band with a firm CV of this and as I would never claim to cut hair (you will know what I mean but this), I know I am about to put the cat amongst the pigeons but there are to many people attempting to take some of the pie and the quality of the product elsewhere is very poor and I would question if they are covered insurance wise and in the skills of running good events for good value.

No doubt Darwin’s idea will work its way on the salsa scene in Cardiff. But for those looking for good nights, well run, with a duty of care to those attending, stick with Andy’s events and Charlotte’s in Cardiff and Swansea.

Having been involved in the entertainment and event industry or 30 years I feel that I might have a point if you agree or not I will be interested to hear the debate.

Try them all out and make your own judgment!

Go-Go You are spot on - couldn’t agree with you more- one of these days there is going to be an accident - and if not insured - I will say no more. Too many unqualified people teaching in Cardiff - and taking business off the professionals.

Mr Redman...

Whilst some of your comments are fair points... Andy and Charlotte are great... that’s a given, and the fittest will survive... it’s a shame you had to resort to some rather below the belt comments, and generalisations that do others who work hard at teaching, and throw some great events, (there’s more than a few good teachers who are in the industry you have a dig at) and some great teachers who teach in and around town, and who have busy classes and regular and commited students (and these same students have tried other classes and prefer their teacher) a huge disservice.

Either you needed to be more specific about the ones you are referring to and don’t rate (which I don’t recommend, it’s not in the spirit of salsa or on this forum) or you need to remember that there are many classes and events in and around Cardiff that you have not been too, so are not really in a position to make such ‘profound’ preaches to us.

Your opinion you are certainly entitled too, but to make out you are an expert on all classes and all teachers and events without having tried them all and this also based on ‘being involved in the entertainment and event industry for 30 years’ is rather laughable. Just what area were you in that makes you an expert on teaching salsa and what students are looking for? It’s not lap dancing on St Mary Street y’know...

Perhaps you would also like to use your involvement ‘in the entertainment and event industry for 30 years’ to tell us the best hairdresser also based on the fact you may have only ever been to two or three hairdressers in your life?

Your Darwin statement is great, however I feel that your very post is proof positive that Darwin’s theory doesn’t always work...

Have a nice day! :-)

I am very glad you have responded in the manner you have I agree there is more than one way to cook and egg did I not say go an try them, and make your own mind up and not one shoe fits all etc etc, if you are happy going to the range of classes great and be happy with it go and enjoy yourself.
This where your so wrong I never claimed to be an expert in dance or salsa.
Also a s point of order you seem to be very touched by the comment, I never claimed to be a teacher of salsa if you re read it only, I someone who attends the evening for a good time.
Like I said I was commenting on these events in the capacity of and event manager and safety officer which is the my area of expertise and a user of these as events.
In answer to your comment on how one might rate it, may be we should open it to a web vote or like one of the site in london that promotes the whole of london has chilly rating what ever you like, you name it. As I said I wanted to open a healthy debate and I feel that it has happened.
Let the events and those who run them give some feed back, and yes I agree they cater for everyone, but surely we do need quality and a bench mark to aspire to.
Would it be out of order to seek what you base your critic on and expertise.
As from a teaching point along side the events I have lectured at degree level for 23 years so I do think I know what makes a good teacher, I am not saying I am great or the best but I am qualified to do this in every aspect.
And as for Darwin statement let see survival of the fittest and all that many he jumped the gene gap when it came to me and maybe h did the same with you.
I would like to hear comments from teachers and users and would ask Hugh to develop some form of rating score so people can see, and even maybe have users comments etc, on this web site the floor is open, I never claimed to be an expert in dance but I am in my chosen area and I stick to that and have hobbies.
Have you ever heard of evening classes for heart surgeons oh I don’t think so.
Why are you so defensive,
Happy dancing where ever you chose to go Person Darwin

Here is my two penneth for what it’s worth…

I’m not attacking anyone so please read this post as it should be read … by that I mean this is purely observational and factual; You may draw your own conclusions as to the validity of what is written and the points that are being raised … Redman is entitled IMHO to a view as to who he personally rates and who he does not. He is not a spokesman for the whole Salsa community and he hasn’t made such a claim but he is raising his concerns on a this Salsa forum and he has a right to do so! There is nothing wrong with healthy debate…

Some of you may know that we were here in Cardiff teaching and providing a Club section after the classes on a consistent basis before anyone else and for a number of years we were a strong presence.

But we had to leave … Why?

Because we simply couldn’t compete against al the other people who decided to start their own nights or more correctly, perhaps I should say their own classes; for not many of them actually provided a Club section to compliment the classes they were operating!

With Darwinism you have to understand that it is not always the fittest or ‘best’ that survive... It is often the most adaptive when there is great change...

I believe this is what made it untenable for SalsaMania to stay in Cardiff, we had much higher overheads than our competitors who probably could manage to survive without even making a profit from their business … Salsa is one of the rare types of business where this is possible, simply because many promoters aren’t necessarily in it to make a living but rather to embark on a jolly or even in some cases an ego trip! They’ll likely have other full time jobs and can afford to subsidise their Salsa ventures. The danger with this is that it makes it much less likely that the serious players will be able to compete and generate enough revenue - because of dilution - to be able to stay in business. People then lose the more experienced - call them professional - players as a result whether that is a good thing or bad thing is for each individual to decide, but you probably know what my view is! It certainly is the case that SalsaMania had to pack up our bags and leave Cardiff and I know for sure that many people weren’t happy about that because of the many supportive e-mails we received.

However, we live in a market economy and I’m not against free and fair competition … I’d prefer to say the weakest will go to the wall. It is fairer though when people are properly informed of the dangers of trying to support to many players and Redman has started a good debate in that respect.

Personally I’m very happy that Andy has asked us to collaborate on providing a Club section for his highly successful SalsaRisa Salsa Club Night as it was extremely enjoyable for myself and Nigel when we were last here in Cardiff and I’ve no doubt it will be again providing of course we can generate enough support!

I see Redman... so you claim to be expertly qualified to comment (as opposed to making a personal opinion) based on the fact that you have been a lecturer and a safety officer! Can you hear the laughter?? I mean really... being a lecturer makes you an expert on how teacher should teach dance and being a safety officer makes you an expert on how good an event is i.e. From a music and atmosphere point of view???

I mean really please! And to be honest that is the bee in my bonnet. Of course people are entitled to personal opinon... but if they are going to make out they have some sort of expertise related to the area then it should be more than just a very tenuous link. The other bee in my bonnet is that whilst there is no doubt that there are people teaching out there that really shouldn’t be, you forget there are also really good teachers and events out there, that you omit to mention purely because you haven’t been to their events or classes. So your ‘expert’ opinion is rather limited at best for a number of reasons that have already been pointed out.

As for a rating system. Great idea... bring it on... the unsung heroes that don’t get mentioned will get a chance to shine! A voting system is easily rigged though and can be biased unfortunately. My idea, take 5 complete beginners (who haven’t attended any classes), and 5 improvers from various classes and get them to go to ALL the classes in and around Cardiff. Get them to mark out of 10 based on things like, teaching, venue, atmosphere, friendliness, fire extinguishers (oops sorry Redman couldn’t resist that one!) and see what we get. I think you would be very very suprised at the results when EVERYONE that teaches is taken into account. Those you would expect to see at the top may well not be there... and that unfortunately is why the system wouldn’t work. Why would any teacher who has a good reputation already submit themselves to this scrutiny and risk commiting hari kari by not being at or near the top?? And those that know they are rubbish wouldn’t want to participate either. Try and suggest it to the ‘top’ and ‘botton’ teachers... go on... and see what response or lack of response rather you get. So without everyones particiption it becomes unusable...

The solution?? Well I think we just gotta let the free market economy do its thing... it’s all about choice... there’s plenty out there... play the field and stick to the teachers that do it for you. :-)

I don’t want to get into a verbose argument because I’d rather be dancing than typing, but it’s very misleading to imply (even unintentionally) that Charlotte and Andy are the only good teachers around.

However (and I’m talking about UK-wide rather than criticising anybody in Cardiff) I have on occasion been very surprised by some of the people who have decided they can teach salsa when their own dancing isn’t up to much.

Rating is very subjective, and getting beginners and improvers to judge the quality of their teachers is daft. If you don’t know much about dancing you can be very happy with teachers who don’t even teach you the basics adequately.

The implication was not one that they where the only good ones its was also about the evening as whole, and I agree with your comments.
If people are happy with poor quality that’s fine.

Ok I know I am interupting on a very interesting debate that you have going here so sincere apologies but I just wanted to add something I may!
I have never ever danced before in my life and have always fancied salsa and at last I attended O’Neill’s on Monday night and I have to say that I really really enjoyed myself and actually learned to dance (well a bit anyway as much as you can in a couple of hours) and of all the friends who have asked me how it went all I can say is that it was very good, really enjoyed myself but most of all that charlotte is a great teacher. Excellent. I thought she was very very good and I can’t rate her highly enough! Not having any one else to compare her to you probably think that I am not in a place to judge and I would agree, but as a total utter beginner I found her superb and I cannot wait to go back again on Monday. Even if I do feel like a prize pratt!!! Ha ha!!

Does anyone know if there is salsa at O’Neill’s this bank holiday Monday (26/5/08)?