Salsa City Forum » News and Chat » How good is Salsa in Cardiff?

Welsh lass

El Diablito from reading previous posts it seems that you were behind Bar M on Thursdays - the best salsa night ever (in my opinion) Why ever did it stop?
I could see the stadium as I sashayed around the dance floor - what more could a Welsh lass ask for?
Also for the record I thought Nigel was great! I think he has the spirit of salsa in him - you can't learn that at a lesson!!

WIZZY

Go on Steve - Do your WORST!

Jupiter Jenny

I am only too ready to apologise if anyone thought my comments were insensitive.

I am a very mild tempered person and am rarely rattled... But I felt the need to support Andy.

I repeat... I would have been a little upset if I had read those comments about me.

However, you have made your point which I take. (Thanks, Hugh.)

Andy Witt

Well here I am the response that some of you have been waiting for.

Firstly I’d like to point out that I generally avoid posting unless there is a direct question asked of me. There is a lot of uneducated rubbish posted on forums by people who do not try to find out the facts before they post. I’m not attacking anyone in particular, these are just my thoughts on forums in general.

With regards to the Salsa scene in Cardiff I think it is currently very healthy, you can go out and dance every night of the week, which I think is a first, something that very few other towns in the UK can boast.
Currently I teach 3 nights a week in Cardiff and I am very proud that a lot of people on the Salsa scene today have started with me, including a lot of the teachers. I also think that there is a very good scene in South Wales as a whole, with classes from Swansea to Newport including many in the valleys. Not all of these are run by me. ;)

In fact in Cardiff there is a wide variety of classes and teachers. I know of at least 8 other teachers running classes on different nights. Now my nights maybe the more high profile but that is probably because they are central.

Now the central problem that seems to have sparked off this debate is that people in Cardiff can’t do a cbl, well as anybody who does any of my classes knows cbl’s are an integral part of my teaching whether it be Cuban or LA Style. To be honest if any of my students said they didn’t know how to do a cbl I’d think they were being nice and humouring you.

With regards to the general standard of dancing in Cardiff itself, I think that like anywhere there is a wide range, to be honest there are some real gems here. Especially amongst the ladies, however it can depend on the night. Or the good ones saw you coming... :)

Now in relation to people getting bored of my classes, well I’m not surprised if you do anything long enough it can get boring. But to put it into context my first teacher is still teaching in the same place I started in.

I would love to do what Steve West is doing in Bristol with guest teachers, but in order to do that we would have to significantly raise the class prices. But as I’m sure some of you appreciate, as this is my business I have tried to keep the prices low so as to encourage more people. If however people feel that they are happy to pay more then let me know and I will organise it.

This is ending up to be a lot longer than intended. So to finish of I would like to point out all the remarks made by ‘el diablito’ are strongly seconded by me. I only do this (like many other teachers) because I love it, this is a dream come true for me. And to be honest there are few things that give me more pleasure than seeing the same passion and desire kindled in another.

** In relation to the post by some about the Teachers Course that I ran, please at least ask a few basic questions of the relevant people first.

The course was run for two reasons:
1. People asked me to!
2. I needed other teachers for various classes that I couldn’t do.

I have currently employ 5 of those that did the course.

With regards to teaching qualifications, may I point out that there are no respected Salsa teaching qualifications in this country. The people that brought Salsa to this country don’t have any and some of the worlds most respected teachers don’t have any.

My own qualifications for teaching physical disciplines include Martial Arts which I did for 12 years, my certificate is signed by 5 world champions. I’m also a qualified physical trainer and aerobics instructor. And I have taught computer systems for 5 years. Overall I have been teaching since I was 15 including Salsa full-time for the last 6 years.

The teachers training course syllabus was overseen by other education professionals and the next course I run will be ratified by an educational body.

I don’t mind people not liking me, being bored by me etc. But please don’t attack my professional ability. I take what I do very seriously from a very sincere desire to give my best to my students as anybody who has ever had a conversation with me about teaching would know.

Anyway I really am signing off now, sorry to rant. If there are any serious questions I will reply or even better come and have a real conversation with me. :)

Regards
Andy Witt

el Diablito
Member

OK Boys & Girls... BRACE YOURSELVES

Firstly... The name Salsa given to the dance we all know and love was not coined without a reason, as it is a rich sauce made from a cocktail of ingredients.

Salsa is a street dance... That’s what it was from its inception, that’s what it is right now and for as long as it remains as a dance form, I imagine that’s what it will be... A STREET DANCE, a free dance, one that is organic and that, belongs on the street and in CLUBS

And it is really important to get to grips with that concept before you go off on one, about who is a professional teacher and what qualifications etc. They possess.

You need only go to any advertised class once to decide whether or not they are offering value for money and if the class gives you exactly what it is you are looking for... Worst case scenario is that, you’ve lost a couple of quid.

Anyhow you should be very wary of qualifications held by teachers because in reality they mean very little. What professional body do you suppose issues them and what global authority do you imagine they have over this most GLOBAL of dances. They’ll mostly be scams to extract money from people who fall for them, often for insurance cover and various other reasons. Think of the certificates you see in, for example Indian restaurants, that claim the food is of an excellent quality ‘the best in the west’ etc. Which will be the same as the certificate in the restaurant next door, which amazingly will also be the ‘the best in the west.’ Frankly I would give about as much credence to a certificate for a Salsa teaching qualification as I would for a certificate on the wall of the local Indian takeaway.

There are no true professional teachers in Salsa so don’t kid yourselves that there are... And don’t let them kid you either! There are however, many teachers who take a professional approach to what they do and I would certainly include the two Cardiff teachers mentioned the most in this thread so far, namely John Pamplin and Andy Witt. In my view there are few teachers who can better the dedication, commitment and professionalism in their approach. So I repeat there is nothing wrong with the quality of teaching in Cardiff.

As for the variety of teachers and the content of the classes on offer, well this is where we need to take a reality check.

Remember when you first clapped your eyes upon a group of Salsa dancers; you probably thought they were amazing... Or at least most of them, even those with only limited experience, would seem like experts. For the first few months of the classes you attended the lessons were fresh and exciting with plenty (too much probably) to take in. But as you progressed the people you once thought were very good began to look distinctly average and even the experts would probably make occasional mistakes which you could recognise. At a minimum you probably began to recognise moves that you would see repeated with some sort of regularity. Consequently you would probably start to become bored and uninspired and this would be true of any teacher and their repertoire of moves, any Dj and their collection of music etc. Etc. It is a natural process and occurs because no one person could possibly add to their repertoire and content at a faster rate than your ability to learn, remember and progress.

Think about your favourite two CDs no matter how much you love listening to them, after a while, you want to listen to them less and less even though you’ll probably always love them and still want to listen to them occasionally.

The bottom line is, that as you reach a certain standard the only way to be inspired and to progress further is to expand your horizons... And your original teacher, whoever they might be will probably encourage you to do so.

Another analogy for you is that some people at the club I run complain that I play the same old tunes, which I don’t. I promise you I add a few new tunes regularly I rotate them often, not playing the same tune for a couple of weeks, months or even years, but because they get to know many of them, they sometimes think this is the case. People coming from out of town (Djs included) tell me that my collection is current fresh and diverse. So there you have it... Familiarity breeds contempt as they say.

Remember Bristol is bigger than Cardiff and yet to keep things fresh I have to bring in teachers from outside Bristol. Only because we attract so many people to the club (not all wanting lessons I might add) can we afford to finance this range of teachers, as it is hugely expensive, and would be very difficult if not impossible to do on a similar basis in Cardiff. And this is where it gets interesting and where I leap to the defence of Andy, John and anyone else for that matter offering classes in your fair City.

Let me preface this next section by the following statement... I believe in every one’s right to free choice, as you’ll have noticed from my previous posts (for example on smoking) and so what I’m about to say is in no way a criticism of anyone! Just a fact that might help to explain why things are the way they are.

Some of you have said kind things about the nights we used to run in Cardiff and I can tell you that we all enjoyed the time we spent there and do miss coming over; but there is a reason why we had to leave and this thread gives me the opportunity to explain why and at the same time might help to answer the pertinent points.

Coming from outside of Cardiff as we did, naturally it wasn’t cheap for us, but we kept the cost of entry to an absolute minimum, I think it was £4 if my memory serves me correctly and although most people didn’t complain about the cost, some people did... A lot. I managed to pay all the wages and meet all the costs, but for the last six months I personally came over and worked once a week for nothing, for a jolly. So basically the pressure to keep prices down made the journey and the night we ran untenable.

But cost wasn’t the only pressure; there was also the unrivalled enthusiasm of some people in Cardiff to start their own night and compete with us even to the extent of running a night on the same night as ours. Most of these people don’t, as we do, run Salsa as a business and remember my mortgage being paid, depends on my business being viable. For them it is often a hobby, a jolly with little consequence if the venture doesn’t work out.

*** Please don’t lose sight of the preface to this section. ***

So anyway most of these short lived ventures into running a Salsa business came and went as you know, yet because of the effect on numbers, this caused our night to stagnate and even dip to the point that we had to make the regrettable decision to pack up and leave for good. It was a classic case of cause and effect.

It probably sounds like a major whinge, but I can assure you, it’s just an observation and is the best way to explain to anyone who needs the original question answered... At least one of the reasons for the lack of variety that now exists in Cardiff.

So I have no problem with fair competition or even unfair competition for that matter, as I’m confident that we do a reasonable job in running a kickass Salsa Club night. But as I said previously, I believe in free choice and if people decide to checkout other options as is there right, then naturally when there is a limited amount of people as there are in Cardiff with relation to the Salsa scene; and at the same time a preponderance of Salsa venues then the consequence of the numbers being spread thinly, is that some venues won’t survive. In the event it was our club night that had to go and sadly it now seems that there are not enough quality nights to satisfy the salsa hungry crowd.

Apologies then, for cutting and running, but those of you who remember our contribution to Salsa in Cardiff will remember that we did give it our best shot.

Hope that answers your question chippy... Take a chill pill and get out more.

Hugh
Admin

Thanks, Andy and Steve. Very interesting, both.

Elena
Member

I’ve found this thread to be really interesting. As someone who’s only been going to salsa classes for a few weeks, I don’t have the history to talk about the “good old days” or the skills yet to critique the dancing. I can say that I’ve been to several of Andy’s classes at the Wharf and one of Johns and they were different but I liked them both in terms of teaching style. As a beginner I felt both made people feel comfortable and got them moving. I don’t think there’s been a one of Andy’s classes where myself and my bloke haven’t come away with a tip or an idea that’s made things make more sense to us. Even if we don’t get things in the class we can take away what we’ve learned and practice at home.

My previous “taught” dancing experience (rather than just going to a club and getting on with it) is in Scottish Country Dancing which I learnt for years as a child. As a woman it tends to involve being physically hurled around at high speed by drunken men who think they know what they’re doing whilst trying to avoid being scratched to ribbons by the square buttons on their highland dress jackets! No matter how badly someone dances salsa, there’s no way they can approach the danger level of that!

I do find it amusing that anyone would say that people in Cardiff can’t do a CBL. I know empirically that this is not true. I’ve seen people do them. Myself and my bloke can even do them and we’ve barely got our toes wet in salsa, they’re not hard!

Hugh
Admin

Thanks for the extra perspective, Elena. Your description of the dangers of Scottish Country Dancing made me laugh out loud!

WIZZY

Good answer Andy. I recall Henry Vena / Suzanna Montero coming to cardiff a couple of years ago to Barry... Any chance that could be arranged again? That was brill. Also - what about the annual salsa competition - thinking of running that again - It'll give Mr Chips a chance to see the standard of blokes or possibly compete. You'd better win though Chippy or you'll be eating humble pie till it comes out of yer ears (was going to put "till it comes out your arse" but thought that might be a bit rude!!!)

Elena - you talk about being hurled around by drunken men thinking they know what they're doing... That sounds just like a typical salsa dance with most blokes to me?!?

MrChips
Member

Hello Peeps...

Please don’t think I have gone away. I have been responding to posts as they appeared, but unfortunately I am being censor’d. [While some people are allowed to express an opinion, others are not.]

I think that the majority of people that have been following this thread [and I suspect there has been a few] would no doubt have appreciated the response by Andy, and I think he deserves alot of credit for this. [also el Diablito’s response was informative]. Although I can’t help but think that his withdrawal and support of the salsa scene in Cardiff probably contributed to its demise.

I appreciate that bringing in a good teachers cost. What doesn’t these days. And to coin a phrase, ‘if you pay peanuts you get monkeys’. But what’s the alternative? More of the same... Andy, put the prices up mate and get some good teachers in... Mario and Susana from London or Mushi and Emma from Manchester... To name but a few. Don’t you think that rather than working in competition with each other, salsa teachers in Cardiff should work together on this for the sake of the long term sustainability of the salsa scene. Or am I being to naive?

Also, I accept a lot of what el Diablito says about the latin culture and the club salsa scene. But I can’t reconcile it with smoking and drinking. I think the culture in Cuba is different from the culture in this country. And we have to accept this. Our cultural history is different from those of the people of of Cuba. We have to accept that. For example what’s the difference between going dancing salsa, having 5, 6 dances, which is the equavalent [where’s the spell check when you need it] of a good workout in the gym. We accept this in the salsa clubs but if people started smoking in the gym there would be a public outcry. Perhaps we should agree to disagree...

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