Salsa City Forum » News and Chat » How good is Salsa in Cardiff?

"Dancing for pleasure" should, of course, be a goal for every salsa dancer. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse for dancers not to learn and for teachers not to teach.

The better you can dance, the more good dancers will dance with you and the more fun you will ultimately have.

At last Hugh you have come out with some constructive. [i.e. I didn’t like the reference to being called a troll!!] Dancing should always be in pursuit of pleasure. At least I hope it is for the majority of people. You have highlighted what really is the crux of the matter. If we look at it in terms of the ‘student’ i.e. There are those who do not wish to learn, for whatever reason [we will come to that later] and then there is issues around ‘salsa teachers’ and what I consider to be the standard of tuition in Cardiff. It is difficult for someone, especially a beginner to actually know whether they are being taught well. After all what have they got to compare it with? Not a lot really. Unless they travel to Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, London etc... They are not going to know. I think that the salsa teachers in Cardiff have a responsibilty to do something about this, not withstanding some reluctance on the part of those who do not feel the need to go to classes I.e Welsh Lass [clearly very opinionated]. As ‘TB’ mentioned earlier in this thread, one salsa teacher was so concerned about the standard of salsa in Cardiff that he or she wanted to do something about it. It would be good if that salsa teacher joined this discussion [whether anonymous or otherwise] to put the salsa teacher’s perspective to this. El Diablito, as a promoter and someone involved in salsa teaching could also have added something to this discussion but instead chose to to go on about something entirely different.This was an opportunity missed... I happen to think enough Cardiff and this subject to actually want to do something about it. I don’t want to sweep this under the carpet. Let’s get this out in the open and discuss it. Then perhaps we can do something about it. I have some views of my own but would like to hear from others first. Just a couple of things before I go.

I wasn’t having a dig at you WIZZY. I couldn’t very well critise El Diablito for his use of language and not mention you when you used the same word. No hard feelings I hope? And finally, What planet are you on Welsh Lass? You have done nothing to add to this thread. You have tried to hi-jack this discussion and detract from the real issue. I have no idea what your motive is. But whatever it is you are clearly unconcerned about the state of salsa dancing and more concerned about yourself. I suspect you are a very selfish person. You have even used your alto ego’s to support your argument i.e. Starlet, Handy Mandy, Peanut, Brazillian Nut, etc. You don’t really have a point to make. You are just being mischievous. Register yourself as a member of this site and perhaps we might take you more seriously... Somehow I don’t think you will...

Please indulge your moderator fantasies elsewhere, MrChips. The only person who decides whether a thread is being "hijacked" is me. Also, who is this "we" of which you speak? Your posts are all underlied with a rather unpleasant tone, but I'm pleased to see that the responses have been, mostly, considered and good humoured.

Mr Chips I'm afraid (once again) you have totally ignored what I have ACTUALLY said and presumed too much!!!!
I didn't say I disregard dancers and I didn't say I don't attend salsa lessons - please read my posts again. I am not any of the other people you mention - though it seems you have been rumbled! Why do you persist in attacking me in such a determined manner?
Also hence my name I am very proud to be Welsh you mention your visits to Cardiff - how many have you made? Did you go to the various lessons on offer? There is one nearly every night in our glorious Capital City.

Oh dear Mr C, now who’s the mischief maker??

However, as Hugh said, we are good humoured and enjoy a lively debate so long as we are not too harsh in our words to others.

You have given us things to consider.

I must say the Cardiff scene is thriving and very friendly. I have been taught by most of the teachers and am perfectly satisfied with their dedication and abilities.

Responses from others in the thread I have found amusing, particularly the reference to the ‘bag of nuts’. Just be careful to protect your walnuts if you ever come to Cardiff to dance as you have ruffled many feathers.

You have worn many hats ‘Jupiter Jenny’ on this topic, as has your partner in crime... But while you have been a voice of reason throughout this thread, the other one has not. [The ‘little one’ is beginning to irate me now!]

Mr Chips...

Just because I didn’t answer your points in the way you would have wished me to, doesn’t mean that I didn’t answer them. You were talking about the standard of teaching in Cardiff as evidenced by the quality of dancing in Cardiff, were you not?
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the standard of teaching in Cardiff! In that an absolute beginner can learn how to become a proficient Salsa dancer in one of several venues, on several nights and be taught by one of several people.

My point being that for most people, that is good enough!... Not for you and some others perhaps, but the people with your take on Salsa could only achieve a higher standard by having more lessons with a wider variety of teachers than would be possible in Cardiff. Cardiff is not London after all! It is about twenty times smaller and actually despite this fact, has produced some wonderful dancers over the past ten years.

For some people (and from your previous comments I’m guessing you’re one of them) the only thing that seems to be important in dancing Salsa is to continually learn ever more moves, increasing in complexity with adopted or taught stylising. There is of course nothing wrong with trying to achieve a reasonable standard as I mentioned in an earlier post, but very few people are ever going to be able to dance at the level of the professionals. You would have to have started young, you’d still have to be young & flexible and you’d probably have to train for several hours of each and every day. The best that most people can aspire to is to reach a reasonable standard, which in its self should be something to be proud of.

Something many of the so called better dancers in the UK and especially in places like London for example, could learn from the people of Wales (at least the ones I’ve met over the years) is something that Welsh lass made clear in a previous post about her attitude to Salsa... ‘I think that perhaps we don’t take each other so seriously and just enjoy ourselves on the dance floor.’ About that I entirely agree with her, as would I imagine, the vast majority of Latinos on this planet and whose culture it happens to be.

The reason that most people go to Salsa lessons is that they didn’t grow up with Salsa as part of their culture as did most Latinos; therefore they need to learn the basics if they’re going to go to a nightclub and enjoy the dance in it’s proper setting.

But some people in this country (and again you appear to be one of them) seem to have forgotten that Salsa is a street dance and for them the only thing that seems to matter is the teaching, the lesson, and the standard to be achieved; this almost to the exclusion of everything else that Salsa is, or should be about. You can often spot these types on the dance floor; they will rarely connect with the music but they will often try to introduce as many of the moves they’ve been taught into the dance as possible; they’ll rarely be looking at their partners and most likely be looking to see who’s looking at them... Worst of all they’ll often blame their bemused partner if a move doesn’t work out however complicated it is.

And don’t misunderstand me, because I repeat, there is nothing wrong with trying to achieve a good standard, and that includes learning some new and original dance moves. But it is not only about how many moves you learn and how perfectly you execute them. It is however, as much about how well you connect with your partner, how good you make her feel about the dance, including her contribution to it and how well you connect with the music; none of these are things about which, you can be taught. Understand this much and you will be a good dancer. Fail to understand this and you’ll look mechanical and soulless. And that is, as you have asked, from a former teacher’s perspective.

Finally...

I don’t know if you are a good dancer... Or, if you’ll ever make a good dancer... I only know this much about you, that after your response to Welsh lass (who only gave an opinion about what Salsa means to her, one which I thought, was measured and reasonable) you are quite clearly, less than a gentleman.

Hey - this is getting good... Better be careful here or I might get banned again.

Chippy Old Bean - you don’t know whether Jenny Jupitor is or isn’t using a number of different aliases... (A sort of personal schizophrenic orgy really if you think about it... NICE) but ultimately... So what? I haven’t registered myself either and no-one knows who I am (good job too really). A word of warning to those who do play the game of using lots of “names” in the same arguement, Hugh DOES know who you are - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Regarding JJ’s point - I disagree - I think the standard of teaching in Cardiff is now - to be frank and (swearing again) CRAP! Well... Not crap... Bloody boring (more swearing) there’s John and Andy (See earlier thread). John does his regular bit every Monday teaching out of his folder of weekly routines and after 20 weeks, starts again, whilst Andy (who is a great bloke don’t ge me wrong) is like the Cardiff DON CORLEONE with Tue / Thur / Fri / Sat / Sun. Although he doesn’t teach “per say” on Fri / Sat.

Now - I’m not a teacher but Andy’s resumé is VERY IMPRESSIVE and for him to teach 5/7 nights, he must be doing something right. Or maybe he isn’t, but if you’re blaming the teaching standard in Cardiff and 90% is him then maybe you should speak to him. He’s very approachable and open to criticism but don’t upset him as he’ll Kung-Fu your ass (even more swearing)...

Saying this... I am very surprised he hasn’t joined in this conversation... I know he reads the threads... So why stay silent when the teachers are being slagged off (again, more swearing)? Andy - Where are you But?!?

El Diablito, YOUR FAB and personally I miss Bar M on Thursdays and agree with everything you say but I think you’ve been away too long, there are only two teachers here now (please come back :'-(

Chippy - Good points, bit too much attack. You’re chatting about people hiding behind a dodgy name (and I’ll include myself) but so are you! Reveal yourself - if you dare!!! Don’t keep banging away at Welsh Lass (ah-oop, bit saucy) she’s... Well... Welsh and if you upset them they get like the Gurkers and won’t let up till they get their pound of flesh (this will probabily come from your testicles).

I AGREE with you (to a lesser extent maybe) about the teaching arguement, the teachers must stay current in what they do and I doubt that John or Andy still attend lessons (saying this, I’m just assuming, if you do stay current then I take it back.) Teaching salsa is like being a Lawyer (what I’m studying) if you don’t keep up-to-date, you’ll go stale.

I don’t live in Wales anymore but three years ago when I did, there was: Andy Witt, John Pamplin, Joe Lantelli, Nigel Maye, Rohan Brown, Steve West, Lambada Mike, Jaycee Jones, Paul Smith, another guy called Phil and ’ickle Charlotte Hutchings (fantastic body on that girl). Joe would tie you up in knots with incredibly complicated routines, Nigel was so entertaining and did great moves that worked on the dance floor, Paul was the best teacher I’ve ever met (even now dancing in Bristol) for being able to explain how to break salsa down so even difficult stuff became quite easy, Jaycee was great for shines, Steve West could teach an entire routine without using a single CBL (almost impossible these days) and Rohan... Well his name is enough, as is Andy Witt’s who is the only TRUE professional Salsa dance teacher. What variety!?! TODAY... There’s only John and Andy.

Maybe - it’s not that the standard that’s gone down hill... Maybe people have just got a bit stale and fed-up.

Ultimately... If your still not satisfied with the standard of Blokes / Lady’s in Cardiff, give me a call, you lead and I’ll be your bitch for an evening on the dancefloor, I’m bloody good at the girls steps and whilst it may not be the best dance you’ve had in Cardiff - I promise to make it the most memorable.

Hee Hee... Just read my post... God I'm good, Go Wizzy, go Wizzy!

Have heard positive things about Andy Witt but the fact he has 5/7 classes a week is not necessarily an indication that he is doing something right. Just that he has monopolised the salsa teaching scene in Cardiff. Is that really a good thing? Where is the choice in that? It would be good to hear from Andy and John if only to seek their views. Of the other teachers you have mentioned I would not necessarily include Nigel Maye in the category. Again, I'm being controversial again. Nigel is a fantastic dancer. He is very good at what he does. But is not someone I would say was a good salsa teacher. I remember doing an advanced salsa class taken by Nigel. His opening remarks were... I'm not a salsa dancer, I'm not even a salsa teacher, but... and then went on teach this routine, which I was not particularily impressed with. lots of arms, twisting and ducking under... Wouldn't do his classes again even if you paid me. I like Rohan... does some good stuff. The others you mention, I don't know enough about to comment. As for you offer of a boogie on the dance floor count me in.