Salsa City Forum » Salsa Music and Dance » Leading ladies

Brendan wasn't grumbling, Pinky. He was just entering into the spirit of the debate, like you. Please don't get cross and chase away my contributors.

Leaving the previous difference of point of view to one side for now, just as a matter of interest what would encourage more experienced followers to do a class? Once you get past a certain point is there anything that can be learnt in a class that wouldn't be picked up by simply dancing with loads of different people? I'm just curious.

I wasn't cross Hugh. Clearly you are reading my post in the wrong tone.

I was just pointing out that my comment is just an opinion in response to his 'grumble'/issue and the fact that we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the question Brendan, erm.. it's hard to know what is missing, when you've never had it in the first place! (Does that make sense?)

I believe I know the content of what should be in a technically correct dance with regards to styling, footwork, tension, types of moves, e.t.c. So that just requires practice to improve until it's second nature and 'perfect'.

However, come to think of it, something that has been discussed in my presence lately is the music. Both men and women alike could be shown how to express themselves with the music more. I know Maria and Manuel are teaching this a little in their classes. The fact of 'don't style' just because you can, but really feel what the music is saying.

Often I dance with men and they are doing a double turn, or something that take a bit more effort than the usual moves and the track is really quite slow. So I would be expecting to do something a little gentler or closer - Do you know what I mean? I just don't see the move fitting in. But how do you teach this in a class?

Brendan, I'm sure the best dancers are keen to learn in every way they can, attending classes, practicing, watching videos and watching other dancers in performance and on the dancefloor, that's how they became the best dancers. But as they get better I'm sure they become more choosy about the classes they attend, preferring teachers they respect and classes with people of an adequate standard.

Pinky, you touch on the problem of influencing the people we dance with, and this is a very hard problem. The easiest person to influence is oneself and that is where we should all start, resolving to try to be communicative and enjoyable dance partners. Then you can hope to influence the people you most enjoy dancing with, there's at least a chance they'll take your ideas and suggestions seriously. Trying to influence a casual dance partner is incredibly difficult; sometimes I will ask a partner to, for instance, stop pumping my arms, or not to pull down on me. It almost never works. I must confess to being totally mystified by this. If a woman said to me, "That thing you do, it's annoying, please stop." I would stop it immediately.

Finally, writing on forums like this can get your ideas out and influence people. When I was starting I found the writing of Edie Espinoza very interesting and useful.

Pinky, I firmly believe that classes in styling or 'music interpretation' are a waste of time. All the styling classes I have done or watched have either had nothing to do with styling or consisted of an hours toture watching everybody try to syncapated suzi q or body wave (badly). Styling is about confidence and if you are a confident dancer and watch other people, styling just settles on you. It is not something you can learn.

Brendan, my ideal class would last about 10 mins with a small group of competant dancers. A good teacher would show you one new move (that's right just one!) you copy it and practice a bit to perfect the lead and that would be that. Or my ideal class would be an advanced rueda class where everyone can actually dance rueda! The class would NOT involve a teacher shouting 'freeze' every 3 beats in the middle of a turn or move. Also I'd like to learn how to double spin (we know you can you smarty pants!).

I have to tread carefully here...

I do not believe it is up to partner A to try and influence Partner B about what, or what not, to do during a fun, frendly, social freestyle dance...ever.

When I first started teaching that was all I wanted to do with any partner that I danced with. Try to teach / tell / correct them on aspects about their dancing during a freestyle dance. People VERY QUICKLY got fed up with it and women (quite rightly so) refused to dance with me or told me to simply shut up. Had I not of taken this "advice" on board a bad reputation would have quickly ensued.

Unless a partner is doing something lethal, painful or plain dangerous (like our mate Tarzan / Dr Death) When your simply having a dance, let them get on with it. So what if they pump their arms / so what if they pull faces like a gold fish - their enjoying themselves. AT THE END OF THE DANCE I may OFFER constructive advice if they would like to hear it, but never dish out my opinions without permission and CERTAINLY NEVER half way through a song!!! Don't make yourself unpopular over it - it aint worth it.

Hugh - women do not like to be told they're doing something wrong and, with respect, if a woman said to you "don't do blah blah blah" or "your leading hurts me" or "Your off time" then I know you may change but you would still take umbrage - it's natural - I would too.

Also there is a lot of arrogance amoung salsa dancers with "how dare they criticise my dancing - who are they to do that" attitudes - salsa snobs - which brings me on to Brendans point.

Brendan - I semi agree that only so much can be learnt from a class but don't stop doing them. Take the time to improve on what you do know - refine things / practice "spotting" - we can always improve. Next point - my advice is to do ANY class even absolute beginners. Why? you can improve your technique / you can "assist" less experienced dancers (careful now - see above comments) but most improtantly - you win peoples respect! As a man, the girls will be really appreciative and LOVE dancing with you and the teacher will respect you for miking up the numbers.

This really used to GET BY BACK UP in the Toad when vey talented dancers (some of whom, I taught to dance) didn't get involved. Bloody dance in the classes man! It shows that your NOT "above" a beginners class - that your prepared to get your hands "dirty" and people will appreciate / like / respect you for it.

You could be the BEST dancer in the world - but if your an arsehole - people won't like or dance with you. Look at George - a great dancer, stylish / good rhythm / excellent leader but his attitude did him no favours.

ESSAY finished

PS - I see George socially and he admits that he made these mistakes too. Dance with him girls - he's very good.

Freeze! Hehe. That gets me too.

The thing about 'classes with people of an adequate standard' is a bit of a catch 22 situation. The 'advanced' classes I go to at least tend to go to the level of the majority of the people there. The more advanced dancers (both leaders and followers) don't tend to go very often as the the level is normally too low and this lowers therefore the overall level of the class. The other thing then is that people are more likely to move up to the class possibly before they are ready and, as they can cope, stay. Even if the level is then raised, most of the people in the class can't cope and you don't actually learn anything. Apologies for the rant but it does get a bit frustrating sometimes. This may not be the case in Cardiff in which case you are very lucky. I think I've probably seen the level of the intermediate and advanced classes in Bristol go down over the last couple of years rather than up.

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In reply to Saul's posting, I think that if you want to learn 'styling' things then you are better off going to non-salsa dance classes. Stuff like street jazz, hip-hop,... depending on what sort of style you want to bring to your dancing. They'll also help with spinning, footwork,... You'll still need to confidence to add them to what you do but at least you've got the mechanics down and you will normally have a rought idea what you look like as those sorts of dance classes are normally done in mirrored studios.
Paul - good posting and I agree with what you've put. The discussion about not going to classes was with regards to followers. I still go to as many classes as I can. Admittedly I don't normally do beginners classes but I don't get put off too much by the level as long as there's something I can work on myself and don't have to haul the follower around to get them to do anything (that's more a personal thing - I have a fairly light lead and having to force the follower just doesn't feel right tends to make me tense).